Curse

Axwind · Mar 08, 2009, 10:09 PM // 22:09

The Eye of the North expansion is good and all, but I was a bit disappointed that there wasn't more time given to the reunion and friendship between Prophecies Hero (PH, from here on out) and Gwen, if Proph was where you came to EOTN from. One single quest was all we got. And outside of that, Gwen doesn't treat PH any different from a non-Proph character, no differences in dialogue after that quest to reflect their old friendship and make doing the expansion with a PH character distinct from doing it with any other.

Nowhere is it acknowledged that, of the people in the EOTN, PH is one of the few that Gwen also knew in Ascalon before the Searing, and probably the one she knows best. And that Gwen is one of the few people there that PH knows from that time as well. One would think that would naturally make them closer, that and the memories of their shared past. After all, they spent what was likely several hours together back in pre-Searing Ascalon, and PH thought enough of her to buy her a flute and an expensive (for the area) cape. And she liked PH enough to give him or her a gift in return, the tapestry shred, and to tell PH that he or she was her favorite person in the world aside from her mother.

I guess I just thought all that would count for something in EOTN besides a single quest that only addresses it a little bit. I think it would be better if there were instead a short series of consecutive quests and maybe a cinematic at the end of the series, each quest unlocked by finishing the one before, and with the series itself being initially accessed by finishing the original quest that's already there, the one where you need the tapestry shred. And alternate dialogue between her and PH during the rest of the expansion after finishing the quests to reflect the renewal of their old friendship, as well as extra dialogue that would appear when she journeys with PH as a hero.

Anyway, just thought I'd post what I think would be an improvement to the EOTN expansion which would bring some attention and closure to that part of the story, something that as it is right now it doesn't do all that much. Which sort of lessens the value of that time Gwen and PH spent together in pre-Searing Ascalon, in my opinion.

Gwmaster · Mar 09, 2009, 12:12 AM // 00:12

yeah i was quite disapointed too when i first went into eye of the north..i was expecting something like "are you...[character name]...zomg <3 kiss..kiss...children.

DarkFlame · Mar 09, 2009, 01:12 AM // 01:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Axwind

After all, they spent what was likely several hours together back in pre-Searing Ascalon

That's enough to overshadow the following years of slavery and abuse and whatever else horrors she has endured since? You got her flute back, its one more quest then any NF or Factions player has access to. Its all that is needed, Gwen can go back to happily killing the Charr and our heroes can move on.

If you want more things to do, bring Gwen to her mother in the UW or get the BMP.

/notsigned

Skyy High · Mar 09, 2009, 02:19 AM // 02:19

Seriously, it's not like our character was her surrogate father or mother or anything like that. She was a little kid, and we gave her a flute; the only deep lasting bond between the characters from a lore perspective was the one the players invented, which has already gotten sufficient fanservice, I'd say.

Axwind · Mar 09, 2009, 04:42 AM // 04:42

So you two would rather she brushed off PH like a stranger outside that quest, then? Is that how you think she should treat an old friend? It doesn't always take a long time to form a bond, you know. The very fact that PH kept her gift for so many years shows that there was at least something there, more than just letting her tag along just for the hell of it. That and the fact that, in pre, the cape was one of the most expensive items PH can buy from a merchant. You don't buy someone an expensive gift unless they matter to you, unless you care.

PH was probably closer in age to her than anyone else she knew back then, since she said there weren't any kids her age to play with. And she was an only child who had lost her father a few years previous. So it's no surprise she would latch onto PH in pre. No surprise at all. Especially since she says quite clearly that PH reminds her of him. It would have been more like a big brother/sister type thing, the friendship between PH and Gwen. And no, just that afternoon wouldn't have been enough to help her move on from her years with the Charr, I don't know where you got that from. The quest (or quests, if the GW people like the idea) with her in EOTN along with the trip into the UW deal with that.

You also forget what I said above, that PH is one of the only people left that she knows now that she also knew back then in pre, and that the same is true of her concerning PH. It just gives them some common memories and a common bond as a starting point, is all. It's not supposed overcome everything she's been through, it's just something that makes her friendship with PH distinct from that of others. Is that really so difficult to believe?

Robbeh The Mad · Mar 09, 2009, 04:53 AM // 04:53

Keep in mind, it was six years pass since the searing and besides Gwen was a annoying kid in prophs. How much attention did you really give her? I was more interesting in killing things.

Taco Fiend Taco · Mar 09, 2009, 05:00 AM // 05:00

Agree with OP. Very good point.

/signed

Axwind · Mar 09, 2009, 05:22 AM // 05:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robbeh The Mad

Keep in mind, it was six years pass since the searing and besides Gwen was a annoying kid in prophs. How much attention did you really give her? I was more interesting in killing things.

Yeah, but just because you felt that way doesn't mean every player does. You're not everyone who's played this game. Not everyone sees things the way you do. Plenty of people enjoyed having her around, this I know from talking to folks in chat and pm as the topic happened to come up. Keep that in mind. And to answer your question, I let her tag along most of the time, and I'm sure I'm not the only one.

DarkFlame · Mar 09, 2009, 05:23 AM // 05:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Axwind

And she was an only child who had lost her father a few years previous. So it's no surprise she would latch onto PH in pre. No surprise at all. Especially since she says quite clearly that PH reminds her of him. It would have been more like a big brother/sister type thing, the friendship between PH and Gwen.

Then for the sake of role play, let me remind you that you left her. Had to play the hero and rush off to the Academy and to war. You weren't there for her when she needed you most. Weren't there when her mother burned, when all around her got destroyed, or through her years as a plaything for the Charr. What kind of fond memories do you have for a friend that abandons you?

Seriously, get over it. The one lose end we had from pre-sear(her quest items) has been closed. Its already more then we ever expected from Anet. And giving more stuff to Proph chars while in an expansion that isn't suppose to have a bias toward which campaigns you own just isn't going to happen.

Axwind · Mar 09, 2009, 05:44 AM // 05:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkFlame

Then for the sake of role play, let me remind you that you left her. Had to play the hero and rush off to the Academy and to war. You weren't there for her when she needed you most. Weren't there when her mother burned, when all around her got destroyed, or through her years as a plaything for the Charr. What kind of fond memories do you have for a friend that abandons you?

That's exactly an issue that EOTN fails to address. How PH felt upon learning what happened to her, and how he/she dealt with it, and what Gwen felt about that. Likely, PH would feel exactly as you said, that he or she had abandoned her, and yet there's no part of the story that deals with that.

And there was no way for PH to have known that the Searing would happen, so it wasn't really abandoning her at all, not when PH likely thought he or she would be coming back before too long—missions in the Vanguard don't take up all of a person's time, after all. And where do you think they come back to afterward, or would have had the Searing not happened? The Academy, naturally, and Ascalon City, which is where it was. And which was near where Gwen lived.

There was also no way for PH to even know if she was still alive after the Searing or what had happened to her before going to the EOTN. Even if PH had wanted to go find her, which would have been very likely, the trail would have been ice cold even just after the Proph campaign's end, the first chance PH would have had to go look for her. PH wouldn't have been able to right after the Searing because the Vanguard would have been busy trying to hold back the Charr.

It's also obvious Gwen never felt abandoned by PH—she's glad to see him or her again and is touched that PH remembered her. Still, as I said, the story never deals with what you said, which is how PH would likely feel about himself or herself after finding her again in EOTN and learning what had happened to her. And how he or she deals with that. Instead it leaves a gap that is never filled. And thus leaves a part of the story unresolved.

Operative 14 · Mar 09, 2009, 05:46 AM // 05:46

I have to agree with the OP. I was expecting more from my Prophecies character's first meeting with Gwen and subsequent meetings thereafter. In the context of Guild Wars, we spent our apprenticeship letting her tag along with us.

Yes, for us players it was only a few hours. In the context of GW it might have been weeks or months, however. And for that matter, assuming our characters didn't magically sprout out of the ground when they were 17 years old and ready to go kill some Charr, 'we' might have known Gwen for quite some time beforehand as well.

I did sort of get the feeling there was a special friendship between us and Gwen. It seemed like we (as our characters) had formed kind of a big brother/big sister type of bond with her. As the OP said, we exchanged gifts and spent a noticeably good deal of time with her. And frankly we had more of a relationship with her than any other NPC, with maybe the exception of Rurick. And, again, as the OP Said, we are truly the only people that she knows from before the searing and before her capture by the char - and for that matter her only true friend since everyone else she knows are colleagues in the Ebon Vanguard.

Now, that being said, it seems like there is some more storyline being written between Gwen and our characters. Wintersday '08 is a prime example of that. I look forward to future additions - like a new M.O.X type of quest, Cinco De Mayo in Rata Sum, or when Mad King Thorn visits the Eye this Halloween

- being used to further develop the personal side of GW. Who knows, maybe our characters can be a Best Man/Maid of Honor at Gwen and Lt. Thackery's Wedding sometime next spring; now that would be a fun festival event.

Dr.Jones · Mar 09, 2009, 07:59 AM // 07:59

@op first off the BMP has a hole mission where her story of getting out of ascalon and the char war camps is explained. Also take gwen with you to the underworld for epic mom and daughter reunion. there is a long dialog.

Axwind · Mar 09, 2009, 05:41 PM // 17:41

Yeah, but neither of those things are exclusive to playing as a PH. And as I've said before, the old friendship between Gwen and PH is never mentioned or portrayed outside of that one quest in EOTN, even though you'd think Gwen would talk to an old friend a little differently than she would somebody she'd only recently met.

MagmaRed · Mar 09, 2009, 07:34 PM // 19:34

Gwen was a little kid when you were in Pre. When you left Pre, Gwen disappeared (captive of Charr). Considering she randomly followed a stranger around as a kid, and not for long, I'd say there really wasn't a 'connection'. When they made her a hero in GW:EN (and gave the game a great abbreviation), I figured they did all they would. The quests you mention are just icing on the cake.

As you noted, not everyone feels the same way about her and her story. The people who didn't care are fine without more. The people who cared may or may not want more. I personally think the BMP is more than they needed to do, and if you care so much, you'd buy the BMP and be happy with that content.

People who do not own Prophecies don't know anything about Gwen except the little bits they learn from the Eye of the North expansion.

I'm glad you got something more than I did from the game's story, but there really isn't a need for Anet to do anything more. They already provided a lot in relation to that character.

DoomFrost · Mar 09, 2009, 08:02 PM // 20:02

Another thing is, you're not the only one she followed. Your face is probably just another out of a million she followed daily before the Searing.

Axwind · Mar 09, 2009, 10:18 PM // 22:18

Doomfrost, where is that ever said in-game that she followed anyone other than PH? I'd like to see you back that assertion up. And you forgot that she gave PH her favorite thing in the world, the tapestry shred, which she wouldn't have done if PH hadn't liked her enough to let her tag along and give her gifts. You don't do that sort of thing if you don't care at least a little about a person.

MagmaRed, it might not have been a long time from our perspective, but in the context of the story there's no way to know how long it really was. Reread my previous post to see why she would indeed have latched onto PH despite your claim to the contrary. And as I said before, the BMP is not unique to a PH character. It deals with the past, not with the present.

I guess you never saw the gaping holes storywise that have always existed in between missions in GW, the glaring omissions that are never addressed. The story simply jumps from one mission area to another without any scenes in between to connect them and develop the characters. Or for instance, do you really believe that PH would have no feelings at all upon learning what happened to Gwen and would instead just go on as if nothing had happened? People aren't like that.

draxynnic · Mar 10, 2009, 12:05 AM // 00:05

In the story context, it is implied that Presearing happened within a single day. It starts with the dawning of the day in which the Searing happens, and finishes with, well, the Searing.

I'm not unsympathetic to your aim, but I can see the other side of things too - we don't want to bias things too far towards having a Prophecies character to interact with Gwen. Ingame, any character that's gone through EOTN will also have gone through the process of rescuing the Vanguard and then defeating the Destroyers with Gwen (let alone any other Vanguard-related quests), a process that is likely to produce a stronger bond than a day's hero-worship followed by abandonment (which is how Gwen likely would have seen it at first, although I'm sure that can be worked out - the PH did have responsibilities, after all).

If further quests appear developing Gwen's story, than I think it would be worthwhile for different dialogue to be used for a Prophecies character than one from another campaign, but I think adding additional Prophecies-character-only content may be a little much at this stage of the game (with a limited Live Team, they'll probably prefer to spend their time making content that all characters can access rather than an estimated one-third of characters).

Axwind · Mar 10, 2009, 04:54 AM // 04:54

I understand, drax, but how do you explain the fact that nowhere outside that one quest in EOTN is the old friendship between PH and Gwen ever even acknowledged. Would she really treat an old friend like a stranger? Do you really think that? Nobody here has yet answered that question.

And as I said before, how is it believable that PH would have no feelings at all about what happened to Gwen, after finding out about it in EOTN? How can she and PH interact as if nothing had happened? How can they simply ignore it and the very fact of their old friendship? It's not that hard to program alternate dialogue sets dependent on where your character gets to the expansion from, to create a unique feel for each approach. Yet that was never done.

PH and Gwen never once talk about or even referenced their shared past and their old friendship outside that one quest. It's as if, that quest aside, it never happened. How is that believable?

And what you said about working out that bond, it was never done. And as has been already said here, it's doubtful it was just hero worship. Remember, Gwen was an only child with only one parent left and practically no one to play with. It's likely that she was a bit lonely, and of the people in pre, only PH spent any amount of time with her. And not only that, but gave her gifts as a sign of friendship, like a big brother or sister would do. Gwen regarded PH enough to give him or her her most favorite thing, the tapestry shred, in return.

Do you really think that, in EOTN, she'd treat someone who had most likely been like an older sibling to her like a stranger? She still valued PH's friendship, as her quest dialogue says, so why is it that outside that quest, there's no indication that that prior friendship ever existed? It's unrealistic, especially since they were never shown to have talked about losing track of each other after the Searing and how PH felt about her capture and about whether PH felt responsible or not for what happened to her.

To keep things balanced, it could work to have extra quests for non-Tyrian characters that would lead to a similar resolution as a PH series of quests, though obviously without the past history and friendship that she has with PH. Perhaps the non-Tyrian quest line might involve helping her find her old PH friend and thus the non-Tyrian character learning about that part of her past and helping her resolve it. Or it could be something else, I don't know.

As far as PH is concerned, by the time of EOTN he or she would have likely have spent that 8 years fighting on and off, battle after battle and threat after threat. Especially if you took PH to Cantha and Elona as well. So many years of fighting and struggle are bound to take their toll on a person. After all, heroes are also human. It's never really shown much in the game, as far as I know, but it would possibly make a good starting point for the PH quest series if that's ever done. And even the non-PH series, actually, given that even characters from the other campaigns would have been fighting for likely several years as well. It could be a single quest series but with alternate styles and slightly different outcomes depending on where the character comes from.

Regardless, there should still be at least a few references to Gwen and PH's old friendship outside that one quest, just for the sake of believability and that she wouldn't treat an old friend like she'd only just met him or her. It just doesn't make sense.

MagmaRed · Mar 10, 2009, 10:31 AM // 10:31

Axwind, whether you want to admit you are wrong or not, not everyone agrees with you. This is a suggestion forum, you made a suggestion. We have discussed it and told you how we felt about it. Get over it, and stop telling me how to think. I think differently than you about it, and won't change. I'm stubborn.

As stated in MANY suggestions, there is a VERY small number of people working on GW1 stuff, and making changes is a VERY small part of what they do. Skill balances and bug fixes are all they will do unless it is a short, easy, and widely sought after change. Addition of quests will take a LARGE amount of time, not only for coding, but for testing. Even if EVERYONE agreed with you and wanted this, I don't see Anet putting the time and money into it.

DragonRogue · Mar 10, 2009, 12:34 PM // 12:34

I agree with the OP that the one quest with Gwen from Proph toons was pretty weak at best. But too much more wouldve been unfair to those heros from the other campaigns.

Drax had a good idea about making a quest that all campaigns could do but the dialogue would be different for Proph heros than it would be with the other continent heros.

My idea would be a new quest with bringing her to her mothers ghost with reward. Shouldnt be too hard to create for the devs, since everything is pretty much already there. This would then give the OP his much needed closure, with different dialog for him, and no one would feel left out if they were from some other continent since the quest would be available to all with different dialogue for them. Something like "hey, guess who i saw in the UW the other day...". The trip to the UW would still cost the quester 1000g however, so hopefully the reward for this quest wouldnt be as lame as the stats on the flute. But would be a nice addition to one of the quarterly updates promised. And few probably have ever paid much attention to the fact that Gwens mother is in the UW, or even knew that if Gwen hero is in your party there is dialogue between them, drawing them to this little known fact.